I think Annie found sanctuary in the best sense of the word. Not impossible. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. . And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! Putting the focus on Sprouls alcoholism getting him into treatment, support groups, counseling, church support, etc. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? I havent seen anyone here, including the people you keep belittling, say that a church shouldnt even try to get professional help for an alcoholic member, just the opposite. They got it right. You sure about that? The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Should the entire church have been warned to stay away from Daisy, to have nothing to do with her, and that shes probably destined for Hell (because she just hasnt gotten over it and shaped up?)? I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. I did some research into AA a few years back after a family member of mine joined and was in a few years, after his behavior became weird and more annoying than usual. It is frightening for them and overwhelming that they could be kicked out of their church if their problem became known. Today that little churchis her home church. and me and Barbara advocated that alcoholics should be kicked out of the church. Every case is different. No, I saw your list. So let me start. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. But it should be tried. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. We had connections with the San Jose Police dept, Good Samaritan Hospital, The Foundry School, The Bill Wilson House, Teen Challenge, Victory Outreach etc,etc. You deal really well with troubled waters. You didnt, however, explain your reasoning for such a drastic step. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Thanks ever so much. Sproul Social Network Timeline 2017 He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). This guy is not pastoral material, period. Welcome to TWW. No one knows. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. . Ive never excused Driscolls awful behavior, why would I excuse this RC Jr. persons? Hes like Driscoll and so many others. So I was only saying what the Bible says. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. It was far more than a couple drinks a day. Basically, he lied. but continue in the faith. Kathleen Melanie (Littlefield) Sproul died April 9, 2021, at her home at the age of 69. and I had was with the Bible if we didnt agree. I will leave it to you & Velour to work it out. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. and Rank awarded by Divine Right Hath the Most Privileges of All. @ Claire: all are attractive.). You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. IMO, any so called Christian who is not angry about this needs to take a good look at their own heart. He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? As Ive already said on Spinderella Sproul, RC Sproul Jr is unregenerate. You get CPS involved to keep checking on he welfare of the children. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). Assuming there is a correlation only gives Sproul the perfect excuse he needs to justify his drinking, and I can guarantee you its also the excuse he used with his drunk driving attorney who then used it on the Prosecutor and Judge: My client lost his wife to cancer in 2011 and his daughter in 2012. Improper judgement is known to be observed during alcohol impairment. I have read it several times, actually. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. I have never shared this before but I just needed to. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Some of it I dont think is fair, but there may be some merit in it. Lea wrote: I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. Im in the same boat with you. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. Q. I have already covered this in Point #2, that he is not qualified to serve. He has had serious chronic abusive and unruly behavior for decades. I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. Ugh. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. View Esther Taylor Indianapolis The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. She was the widow of Robert C. Sproul Jr.; mother of Roberta S. (Frank) Shuck and Robert C. Sproul III; Grandmother of Sherrie and Robert Craig Sproul; Sister of Mrs. Arthur Gunther, John and Joseph Yardis. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. and me on Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. I am so glad for the help that you gave to people in our area (Silicon Valley). @ Deborah Coan: Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. What exactly is the definition of an alcoholic? Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. But interventions and treatment does work. But see, if I ask you to clarify your position or even answer, you will accuse me of being Change). More than anything thats what his parents should have been concerned about all these years. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? Thank you Lisa for your comments here. Im glad you are no longer around them and their hateful views. I was on the road when it hit, Loma Prieta, things collapsing the road buckling and our house was thrashed though we did not know it until it sold a few years later during the inspection while selling it and we took a big loss on it; Foundational and chimney issues. He went to the hospital the next day, he did not want to go that evening but finally, my mother insisted. But some of us here also have not just experience with alkies in general. Probably the minute you think am I drinking too much? is a good time to cut back. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. ) And yes, we must continue to pray. So here it is. Thank You. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. An 501(c)3 pastoral position of public trust has been verified? I can see why you loved him, faults and all. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Here are photos of my injuries a few days after the horrific tragedy. Moreover, there is a context to this discussion. Velour wrote: That is them saying that, not me. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. (but then, in certain christian circles, mocking for all sorts of things seems to be endemic, which is a possibly related problem). Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?) The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. The old playing the gossip card. I just dont know any. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? Sproul Jr. does need to be fired for his abusive conduct. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. However, due to the toxic nature of these 6 practices in a group fellowship, do not allow these.). More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. He passed out at the wheel. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. So for creating a scandal he got a ten month paid holiday. I verified this myself, at the site, at the time. And guess what Yeah. Vastly different things. The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. But interventions and treatment does work. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. is pretty controlling. You appear to have reading comprehension problems and are far more focused on insisting that you be heard (thus you keep posting the same 4 point list, over and over again) than you are willing to consider others opinions. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. I appreciate the kind words. Friend your comment made me weep. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? I do think that some forms of patriarchy (as lived by RC Sproul Jr, Doug Wilson, as examples) can encourage conditions that are fertile for alcoholism to develop. Anger, no. Please stop. And yes, we must continue to pray. You probably know as well as anyone they dont make good candidates for alcohol rehab, but family systems that enable an alcoholic make it all but impossible. Seek help! How do you realistically deal with the tragedies hes faced with those beliefs? Please. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). However, they are very good at confronting self-deception with reality, and that can sometimes be less than pleasant. @ okrapod: :'(. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. so terrifying. Under this plea agreement he will face no prison time, provided he successfully completes the requirements of his probation. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. Sovereign Grace Ministries Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. mot wrote: Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. BFM2000 is not, to my knowledge, PENAL, rather just substitutionary. Do they criticize non-drinkers? I wonder if Paul accused them of boasting because they were more concerned with numbers and protecting their reputation by sweeping things under the rug. Ill be praying for you and your circle. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. Two very separate issues here. Sharon Ann Sproul Sharon Ann Sproul, age 58 years, a resident of Rt. Sproul, Jr. has a new book coming out, published by Ichthus Publications (what were they thinking???). I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. @ Friend: His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. That is carrying it too far. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. Jack wrote: Maybe Sproul 1 needs support from other families of alcoholics (and professionals) in order to have the emotional and spiritual strength to let his son hit bottom. That must have been very tough and I dont know why that didnt work. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. 4. I don't like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. When he hit rock bottom, and the family stopped coddling, excusing his drinking, he went to detox. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? I drinking too much Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday evening: comment. 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